Are the men brothers? Or are they just neighbors? (Something I read said they were brothers, but I must have missed that in the film).
I really enjoyed how the women were always sensible, always cautioning their man to not be an ass, and the dude would never listen, and the lady would always be right. In a Western morality tale, it would always be the woman who was at fault somehow. Hehe. (Not that Japanese culture is a bastion of feminism). And I enjoyed the contrast between the potter's wife and the "samurai's" wife. The former wrapped her pleas to not be stupid in love and caring, and the latter wrapped hers in bile and condescension (charmingly berating him as a "fool" etc.). I like that the women's personalities varied, that we weren't just given two identical "nags."
And the men's did, too. They were both foolish and vain in their own ways, but they were distinct individuals.
In the DVD interviews with people who knew director Mizoguchi, they said that he really LIKED women (made me think a little of Almodovar) and that he was way ahead of his time in concerning himself with what women's lives are like and what they endure in a patriarchal society. One of the guys said Mizoguchi fell in love with a prostitute as a young man and that she slashed his back with a razor during a "lovers' quarrel" and that the scar became very symbolic to him. He also said Mizoguchi was in love with the actress who played the potter's wife (Kinuyo Tanaka) and how his face looked "adorable" when he would make pronouncements like "Kinuyo Tanaka is the best actress in Japan."
In war, extraordinary things can be inflicted on you by events. But by changing your environment, war can also let you think and act in ways that would have seemed extraordinary or impossible before. In “Ugetsu”, Mizoguchi kind of divides these effects between the genders. The women are more consistent in their views and beliefs even as outside forces inflict drastic changes on them. The men, on the other hand, pursue mad egotistical dreams that only seem to become possible in the fractured society of civil war.
Do you guys think the potter was an exceptional craftsman/artist as the ghost lady implied, or just an ordinary, utilitarian pot maker who let his vanity pump up his ego? I guess there's a similar issue with the wannabe samurai.
He did have some aesthetic sense. I liked how whenever he had money he wanted to buy his wife a nice kimono. He seemed to appreciate the beauty of the garments; it didn't appear to be just a status symbol, like show-off guys who buy their wives diamonds and fur coats and such without having the least bit of aesthetic understanding/appreciation of the object itself.
I wondered the same thing, kc, about his actual skill as a potter. His pots looked fairly ordinary to me, although I suppose I'm not seeing them in the proper context. (Or even in color.)
The "samurai" character kind of bothered me, I guess just because he didn't seem to have much to recommend him. I could sympathize more with the potter. He was self-centered and foolish, but he did really want to make his wife happy. He imagined she would be delighted by the beautiful kimonos (like the ghost lady was), but he was blind to what she really wanted and needed from him.
I loathed Topei, the would-be samurai, though I appreciated his actions had to drive the story forward. He aspired to a position of great honor but increasingly resorted to dishonorable acts to assume the role.
That said, I didn't expect his redemption or reclaiming of his wife, his willingness to come home to a simple life. Perhaps he was experiencing his own enchanment just like the potter.
I also wondered about the potter's skills. But he appeared to make a killing on his first trip to the village and had many eager customers at the next.
KC, about the potter's aesthetic sense, I wonder if he merely had a layman's understanding of what was for "the rich." I wouldn't be able to judge the status of the goods he bought his wife, but I thought part of the ghost's seduction was how she introduced the potter to the real "good life." Her surroundings, dress and ceremonies were so much more ornate than he seemed to have experienced.
I liked the balance among the four characters. And I liked how different they were from one another.
If the movie had come from a more enlightened society, I might not consider it feminist, but coming from a patriarchal society, I think you can easily make the argument that it was. The women were strong and smart and right.
About Genjuro’s skill as a potter, I’d suggest that there are two reasons to think he is not much better than average. First off, he made the wares he sold across the river very quickly and we see him working long hours to do it. And we also see his wife Miyagi pouring on the glaze. So if Genjuro had been honest, he would have told Lady Wakasa that the credit for the glaze belongs to his wife. The second reason is that Mizoguchi is very focused on detail. Although he was reluctant to use close-ups, if he had wanted us to think of Genjuro as a great artist, he would have use an expensive 16th century object as a prop even if he had to stop production for a week until he could find one. I agree with cl that Genjuro has less of an artistic aesthethic than just a sense of what kind of goods are status symbols of the rich.
Erin, I think Genjuro’s attempts to please his wife are more complex than that. The first time he returns home and gives his wife a kimono, she tells him that it is just the thought that counts and what she is truly pleased about is that he returned safely home. She seems to think it is silly for a poor peasant woman to have fancy clothes, and I have a sense that she would rather have held the cash as insurance against future hard times particularly with war afoot.
So Genjuro’s efforts are more shallow and self-centered than they first appear. He instead imagines himself as the kind of man who can please his wife by keeping her well-heeled. He doesn’t understand that the real flesh-and-blood Miyagi isn’t that abstract woman. Only after her death does Genjuro reflect on who his wife really was and what she desired.
Tobei has an even cruder version of this self projection. He imagines his wife as the pleased companion to a war hero even as she ridicules his stupid and dangerous dreams.
The scene in the kimono shop were Genjuro imagines his wife shows us that he is pleased by the thought that she would be pleased by the finery. But we know she would not go ga-ga over threads like that.
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying, dw. Maybe I wasn't clear about that. I think he really did want to make his wife happy, but he was too self-centered and shallow to understand who his wife was and what would truly please her.
12 comments:
Are the men brothers? Or are they just neighbors? (Something I read said they were brothers, but I must have missed that in the film).
I really enjoyed how the women were always sensible, always cautioning their man to not be an ass, and the dude would never listen, and the lady would always be right. In a Western morality tale, it would always be the woman who was at fault somehow. Hehe. (Not that Japanese culture is a bastion of feminism). And I enjoyed the contrast between the potter's wife and the "samurai's" wife. The former wrapped her pleas to not be stupid in love and caring, and the latter wrapped hers in bile and condescension (charmingly berating him as a "fool" etc.). I like that the women's personalities varied, that we weren't just given two identical "nags."
And the men's did, too. They were both foolish and vain in their own ways, but they were distinct individuals.
In the DVD interviews with people who knew director Mizoguchi, they said that he really LIKED women (made me think a little of Almodovar) and that he was way ahead of his time in concerning himself with what women's lives are like and what they endure in a patriarchal society. One of the guys said Mizoguchi fell in love with a prostitute as a young man and that she slashed his back with a razor during a "lovers' quarrel" and that the scar became very symbolic to him. He also said Mizoguchi was in love with the actress who played the potter's wife (Kinuyo Tanaka) and how his face looked "adorable" when he would make pronouncements like "Kinuyo Tanaka is the best actress in Japan."
In war, extraordinary things can be inflicted on you by events. But by changing your environment, war can also let you think and act in ways that would have seemed extraordinary or impossible before. In “Ugetsu”, Mizoguchi kind of divides these effects between the genders. The women are more consistent in their views and beliefs even as outside forces inflict drastic changes on them. The men, on the other hand, pursue mad egotistical dreams that only seem to become possible in the fractured society of civil war.
Do you guys think the potter was an exceptional craftsman/artist as the ghost lady implied, or just an ordinary, utilitarian pot maker who let his vanity pump up his ego? I guess there's a similar issue with the wannabe samurai.
He did have some aesthetic sense. I liked how whenever he had money he wanted to buy his wife a nice kimono. He seemed to appreciate the beauty of the garments; it didn't appear to be just a status symbol, like show-off guys who buy their wives diamonds and fur coats and such without having the least bit of aesthetic understanding/appreciation of the object itself.
I wondered the same thing, kc, about his actual skill as a potter. His pots looked fairly ordinary to me, although I suppose I'm not seeing them in the proper context. (Or even in color.)
The "samurai" character kind of bothered me, I guess just because he didn't seem to have much to recommend him. I could sympathize more with the potter. He was self-centered and foolish, but he did really want to make his wife happy. He imagined she would be delighted by the beautiful kimonos (like the ghost lady was), but he was blind to what she really wanted and needed from him.
I loathed Topei, the would-be samurai, though I appreciated his actions had to drive the story forward. He aspired to a position of great honor but increasingly resorted to dishonorable acts to assume the role.
That said, I didn't expect his redemption or reclaiming of his wife, his willingness to come home to a simple life. Perhaps he was experiencing his own enchanment just like the potter.
I also wondered about the potter's skills. But he appeared to make a killing on his first trip to the village and had many eager customers at the next.
KC, about the potter's aesthetic sense, I wonder if he merely had a layman's understanding of what was for "the rich." I wouldn't be able to judge the status of the goods he bought his wife, but I thought part of the ghost's seduction was how she introduced the potter to the real "good life." Her surroundings, dress and ceremonies were so much more ornate than he seemed to have experienced.
I liked the balance among the four characters. And I liked how different they were from one another.
If the movie had come from a more enlightened society, I might not consider it feminist, but coming from a patriarchal society, I think you can easily make the argument that it was. The women were strong and smart and right.
About Genjuro’s skill as a potter, I’d suggest that there are two reasons to think he is not much better than average. First off, he made the wares he sold across the river very quickly and we see him working long hours to do it. And we also see his wife Miyagi pouring on the glaze. So if Genjuro had been honest, he would have told Lady Wakasa that the credit for the glaze belongs to his wife. The second reason is that Mizoguchi is very focused on detail. Although he was reluctant to use close-ups, if he had wanted us to think of Genjuro as a great artist, he would have use an expensive 16th century object as a prop even if he had to stop production for a week until he could find one. I agree with cl that Genjuro has less of an artistic aesthethic than just a sense of what kind of goods are status symbols of the rich.
Erin, I think Genjuro’s attempts to please his wife are more complex than that. The first time he returns home and gives his wife a kimono, she tells him that it is just the thought that counts and what she is truly pleased about is that he returned safely home. She seems to think it is silly for a poor peasant woman to have fancy clothes, and I have a sense that she would rather have held the cash as insurance against future hard times particularly with war afoot.
So Genjuro’s efforts are more shallow and self-centered than they first appear. He instead imagines himself as the kind of man who can please his wife by keeping her well-heeled. He doesn’t understand that the real flesh-and-blood Miyagi isn’t that abstract woman. Only after her death does Genjuro reflect on who his wife really was and what she desired.
Tobei has an even cruder version of this self projection. He imagines his wife as the pleased companion to a war hero even as she ridicules his stupid and dangerous dreams.
The scene in the kimono shop were Genjuro imagines his wife shows us that he is pleased by the thought that she would be pleased by the finery. But we know she would not go ga-ga over threads like that.
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying, dw. Maybe I wasn't clear about that. I think he really did want to make his wife happy, but he was too self-centered and shallow to understand who his wife was and what would truly please her.
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